"Ultimately, you must take the content seriously, not the shell"

An interview with Johannes Schneider on colors, astrology, and personality analysis. By Claude Weiss

Johannes Schneider, born in Basel in 1934, spent decades researching the psychological significance of colors and developed his color test. Later, he came to link his system with basic astrological principles, resulting in a convincing tool you can use to playfully sound out your current state of mind, on the one hand, and on the other hand - in connection with the birth chart - for a concise analysis of your personality. "Astrologie Heute"[1] hspoke with Johannes Schneider about his path from color to spiritual insights.

Claude Weiss: Johannes, you have developed an amazingly accurate method for interpreting individual behavior and character. It is based on the astrological constellations of birth and also exists as a color test that can shed light on the current situation of a questioner.[2] How did you come up with it?

Johannes Schneider: It's a long story. Back in my school days at the Humanistic Gymnasium in Basel, I had already written a paper on color selection with the Lüscher test for my Matura exam, and it fascinated me even then to find out what the colors meant. I also did intensive tests with it and saw that something had to be changed and developed further. In 1975, I started to build up my test with different colors. As a basis, I took the four colors red, yellow, blue, and green because it seemed clear that you cannot describe psychological situations with the three primary colors known from physics but best with four colors. I first extended these four to twelve colors and operated with these, then to 16. A little later, I added four achromatic colors to the chromatic ones: white, black, gray, and brown.

Weiss: But that was not the last word.

Schneider: No, because after I had tested this color set on many people for a long time, I realized that I had to redesign the whole thing. I added pastel shades, and by then, I had 20 colors. But the big breakthrough came in 1989 when I included four shades of brown and discovered the connection between color and astrology.

Weiss: How did this come about?

Schneider: The decisive factor was that I suddenly had the intuition that the twelve rainbow colors could correspond to the twelve signs of the zodiac. That was the key. The red tones matched the fire signs. And my test contained three red tones! I also had three greens and realized they corresponded to the earth signs. My three blues matched the water signs, and the yellows correlated with the air signs.

Weiss: Did you initially develop this test independently of astrology?

Schneider: Completely independently! The basis was the color wheel because I always worked with the Ostwald color wheel in my training as a drawing teacher; this is the basis for artists and every color education. The circle is convincing to me. It is a closed system, and it shows polarities because every color in the wheel has a counterpart that behaves in a complementary way. I wanted a color system that was self-contained and polar, unlike other tests that chose the colors somewhat arbitrarily. After all, the human personality is polarity-based, with opposites such as good and evil, light and dark, love and fear. These opposites also play out in the psyche, and it was a stroke of luck that I built on the circle and started with these twelve rainbow colors. Slowly, I added the harder-to-define colors, like browns or pastels.

Weiss: So you first worked with the Lüscher test, then developed your test, and only later made the connection with astrology. Right?

Schneider: Yes. The connection with astrology came quite a bit later: I started in 1975 and only developed my Astro-Color-System® in 1989.

Weiss: How did you come across astrology?

Schneider: That's a much older story, going back to my youth, when my mother used to draw up horoscopes after work, which she kept in a big box, delving into them - and I would watch her curiously.

Weiss: Did she work as an astrologer?

Schneider: As an amateur astrologer. I was interested in these drawings with their secret signs, whereby she always said to my questions, "You'll understand that later." And I later put a lot of effort into deciphering these secret signs on my own, without courses, just with the help of astrological literature.

Weiss: You never took an astrology course?

Schneider: No. There were hardly any courses at that time.

Weiss: When did you start doing astrology?

Schneider: As a young adult. I was about 20, and even then, I wanted to crystallize what was essential in each planet and its interpretation because I was tired of studying hundreds of books, only to find that when I had finished reading the book, I no longer knew what was in it. That's why I started to put together a concentrate of many books: I collected the different opinions in a big card file, where I put notes, for example, for Mars in the first house, Mars in the second house, and so on. Later, I even developed a punch card system because there were no computers. That allowed me to pick out the desired interpretations from the cards.

Weiss: So you seem to have been driven early on by a need for systematics, for simplification, and I think this is also what is so impressive about the results of your research. Lay people often criticize astrology because a position can mean something specific, but sometimes also the opposite, which has increased with the expansion of psychological astrology, whereas, previously, astrologers had a much stronger tendency to make clear statements.

Schneider: This is precisely my concern. In the past, of course, it was easier to say: This is good, that is bad. Of course, that corresponded to black-and-white thinking. But I thought there had to be something in between - neither rubber nor black-and-white.

Weiss: So, a psychological interpretation, but still with appropriate clarity?

Schneider: Clarity and brevity. I thought that if I made interpretation modules, I could put a text together from them, and perhaps this would be usable later with the computer. And this was my basic idea: to create elements that I could combine in many ways. A short sentence has to make sense together with other short statements. - A challenging task, but I thought I could do it.

Weiss: And that's what I find so interesting about your system. In astrology, we tend to have too much information. But the essence is to set priorities.

Schneider: Exactly. I always thought that, in astrology, you can't see the forest for the trees. So I made a clear cut, for example, with the orbs: I found them much too large and reduced them, which makes the picture simpler, crisper, and neater.

Weiss: You use an orb of about three to five and a half degrees for the conjunction, depending on the planet combination, and even smaller ones for squares and trines. How did you arrive at these relatively narrow orbs? How did you determine them?

Schneider: My idea was that each planet has a particular orbit, that is, orb, and for an aspect, I had to add the two together. That resulted in the relatively low degree values you mentioned. I then tried how the results changed when I widened or narrowed the orb. Using narrow ones makes it possible to come to concise and coherent conclusions.

Weiss: You work with the sidereal series of planets and give the faster ones a wider orb than the slower ones.

Schneider: n most astrological systems, the Sun always comes first, so one likes to give the Sun the widest orb. That did not make sense to me because I believe relative velocity determines the cosmic order. From the Earth's viewpoint, each planet has a certain speed, with the Moon being the fastest, which results in a meaningful order. So, I have arranged the celestial bodies according to their velocity. I have the impression that the prominence of the Sun has to do with the patriarchal system displacing the Moon. In my system, the Moon is at the top.

Weiss: You found, as you say, correspondences between your color test and the astrological constellations in 1989. Did the possibility of interpreting the horoscope already emerge at that time?

Schneider: At first, astrology served me only as a basis for my interpretations, and it gave me security. Then, I transferred my colors to the astrological positions and found that it worked. It was not until relatively late that I realized there was a way to translate the horoscope into color. I then developed a system that weights which house and sign a planet is in and which aspects it forms.

Weiss: And this linking of your color system with astrology worked?

Schneider: There was still a discrepancy with conventional astrology. When I set up the Astro-Color-System®, it didn't make sense that the planetary rulers didn't match the number of zodiac signs. Officially, there are ten planets but twelve houses and signs. Mercury rules Gemini and Virgo, and Venus rules Taurus and Libra. All other planets rule only one zodiac sign, and it seemed inconsistent to me to assign Venus and Mercury to two. I then saw that you can correlate Chiron to the Virgo sign.

Weiss: In which year was that?

Schneider: I think it was around 1990. I needed twelve planets in my system and wanted a clear and neat assignment. The addition of Chiron gave good results. He is considered a healer, a sage, and a teacher, which fits the Virgo sign. I had already noticed as a teacher that many of my colleagues had the Sun in Virgo. Absorbing knowledge, which they pass on in digestible portions, seemed typical of Chiron, who taught his students in a cave and was a master. After I assigned Chiron, there was one more field to fill: the Taurus sign.

Weiss: What solution did you find for this?

Schneider: There remained one minor planet, which is so conspicuous because you can see it with the naked eye, namely Vesta. I assumed this gave it an exceptional status because other minor planets are only visible with powerful telescopes. So, I assigned Vesta to Taurus. Although the Vestals are said to have been virgins, thus seemingly belonging to the Virgo sign, they had a different function: They tended the sacred fire in the temple. This task of securing energy seemed to correspond to the Taurus sign, concerned with security, domesticity, and personal security of livelihood. In history books, you can also read, for example, that the existence of the Roman state depended on this fire, which the Vestals constantly maintained.

Weiss: And did your assignment prove to be correct?

Schneider: Since I was not getting ahead with the theory, I tried out whether the assignment yielded meaningful results. When I assigned Vesta Taurus themes such as security and self-preservation, it resulted in consistent statements. It was only recently that I read up on the prehistory of the Vestal Virgins in more detail, and it became clear that mythologically, they were not virgins from the beginning, yet in matriarchal times, they also had quite different functions as priestesses, which led to their later being called "temple prostitutes."

Weiss: A correspondence that strongly expresses the sensual element of the Taurus sign.

Schneider: Yes, and they were also among the women who conceived the king's son. For example, Romulus, as the founder of Rome, is said to be the son of a vestal virgin, which certainly does not fit the Virgo correspondence. When patriarchy became established, things changed because they domesticated everything feminine. So, the only function that remained for the Vestal Virgins was to tend the fire, which had nothing to do with sexuality and sensuality anymore.

Weiss: The Vestal Virgins were later even executed if they did not remain virgins. That's a significant change I noticed in "Asteroid Goddesses"[3] by Demetra George, which describes Vesta's different functions through the ages.

Schneider: Exactly. It also fits that in my system, not the Sun but the Moon is at the top, and in the original matriarchal cult, the Moon had the function of the main goddess. The cult of Vesta was related to the cult of the Moon, and it is probably no coincidence that Vesta comes back to prominence with my system.

Weiss: Maybe changing the usual attribution system somewhat fits with rediscovering the originally feminine.

Schneider: In connection with this, another modification has imposed itself on me over time: for 20 years, from 1975 to 1995, the number Four formed the basis of my system. Then, in 1995, something strange happened: I used, among other things, the color gold in my color test, and during this time, people with whom I did the test suddenly asked: "Tell me, your color test contains gold, why is silver missing?" This objection repeatedly came up until it became clear to me that silver had to have a place as a counterpart to gold. And this led to a decisive rethinking. Until then, my circle had the achromatic colors as outer poles - spiritual poles, so to speak: white as detachment, black as imperturbability, gold as superiority, and gray as the opposite pole to gold. I suddenly found that no longer very convincing.

Weiss: Because silver was missing?

Schneider: Yes, but when I added silver, I had 25 colors, which suddenly changed the whole system! Four was no longer the basis, but Five: 5 x 5 = 25. Five is irrational because you cannot divide it by anything but itself. Four, on the other hand, corresponds more to rational thinking. It took some courage to take this step from Four to Five, but it also led to a shift in my reasoning - from the predominantly rational intellectual to a stronger emphasis on the irrational. Now I had to think: Where does the gray go now? In the center, of course! And suddenly, the whole system was balanced. On the outside were the two polarities, black and white, as well as gold and silver, and in the middle was the gray as a neutral center.

Weiss: The number Five has connections to other cultures. We also find five elements in the Chinese system.

Schneider: Of course, this also helped me to come up with the Five because I was already involved with Chinese culture as a child. As a boy, I collected Chinese and Japanese objects and always wanted something from this cultural area for my birthdays, be it a Chinese vase, a Chinese picture, or something similar. At the time of elementary school, I already had a nice collection. I kept a catalog, like a small private museum, in which I described and numbered the objects. I then attempted to learn Chinese, which failed, however, because this language is impossible to learn only from books.

Weiss: So you were familiar with the number Five as a foundation?

Schneider: The number Five has been the foundation of the cosmic system for the Chinese for thousands of years. Unfortunately, the original concept has disappeared a long time ago. As my Japanese spiritual teacher explained, the ancient Chinese had a system of five elements with earth at the center: four on the outside and one in the middle. Later, when the system became more intellectual and lost its originality, they moved earth to the outside and lost the center.

Weiss: The color testing process was the focus of your system for a long time. In the meantime, you have refined the interpretations so that you can interpret a horoscope concisely. And highly intriguing, concise, and precise explanations emerge, which are often also quite forthright.[4] One sometimes feels you are "dishing out" a bit. What do you think about that? Is that necessary? Do you have to shake people up like that?

Schneider: To answer, perhaps I'd best go into my horoscope.

Weiss: Gladly.

Schneider: I have the Sun, Moon, and Venus in Libra, and Jupiter is also there, on the cusp of the Scorpio sign. My mother characterized me like this: "You are a dear, nice, and friendly person." That's how it was. I was and remained a nice boy. And when I later did my tests with people, they always said at the end, "Nice, and when will you talk about my negative traits?" I answered, "The reading is over, that's all." People didn't understand that: "But that can't be! I also have negative sides. Where are they?" And so, at the request of many people, I began to explore what negative factors were creating the problems.

Weiss: So you also had to bring in less nice sides of your horoscope, of your personality.

Schneider: Now my Ascendant came into play: Scorpio. So my toxic Scorpio probed deep to see where the weak points hid. My Mercury in Scorpio in the first house also helped: My mind always wanted to discover the essence behind the appearance. As I know today, Vesta also played a role in this - it is close to Mercury in the first house, which gave me the necessary perseverance to search all these years and improve the phrasing until I was happy with it.

Weiss: That shows tremendous persistence or even obsession.

Schneider: Or fanaticism. I even had problems in my marriage because of it. My wife accused me of always sitting at my color test and not doing anything with the family, which was probably slightly exaggerated. It was never work for me, but an occupation that made me happy.

Weiss: Looking at your chart, I notice not only your Scorpio Ascendant and Mercury in Scorpio but also that the ruler of Scorpio, Pluto, is high up in the sky. That makes it one of the highest-placed planets with Mars and Lilith. Pluto and the two other planets as leading stars correspond to a completely different component than the "dear Libra" represents.

Schneider: Pluto in nine also explains my lifelong search for the divine - I often felt like a lost child looking for a father who was not home. My physical father, by the way, was not there for me very much either - he was either absent or writing his reports and books.

Weiss: What was his profession?

Schneider: He was a theater critic, then became a publisher and had a publishing house. So I grew up reading a lot of books, and I read a lot of books throughout my life until I got to the point when I realized I didn't find the wisdom, the divine in books, in any book. I attribute my search for the spiritual to Pluto in the ninth house.

Weiss: But Chiron in Gemini in the eighth house could also have played a role in this search for the formula, the key.

Schneider: For sure! The key is in the eighth house, which corresponds to Pluto.

Weiss: They also have a similarity with Mercury in Scorpio.

Schneider: Another factor is Chiron, which is not only in the Mercury sign Gemini but also makes a quincunx aspect to Mercury. In these positions, I recognize my preoccupation with life and death, this fundamental polarity in which we all stand. But somewhere between "dying and becoming" must also be the calm anchor, peace, and no tension. I have searched for this with my intellect, Mercury, for a long time. In the meantime, I have concluded that this purely intellectual search is not the best option. I cannot find it with the intellect.

Weiss: What does it take, then?

Schneider: It takes letting go. We use this thinking mind to solve problems. However, it is becoming increasingly clear to me that the thinking mind creates the problems in the first place, which it then tries to solve. The intellect is trying to do something that is not even possible. It wants to solve problems and, in the process, creates an infinite number of new ones. I'm convinced we must proceed differently - look inside ourselves and just let go of this thinking mind for once.

Weiss: And what dimension is that? How would you describe it?

Schneider: It would be the non-dual or the one-dimensional. We merely believe that we are in the duality between life and death, birth and death, good and evil, desire and fear, whereas the reality - I am becoming increasingly convinced - lies neither in Good nor Evil but in the neither nor.

Weiss: With that, you are addressing Taoist thoughts. It seems that you are searching for the undivided, for the meaning that brings forth the whole. And when I look at your horoscope, this Pluto in nine again catches my eye, which makes a square to Jupiter. So Jupiter would be the principle of the heart, the impulse, the undivided, which should come more into play instead of the dividing Mercury principle.

Schneider: Exactly.

Weiss: In this context, I find it interesting that you have developed a system with Uranus equally in this figure, which is supposed to characterize the personality. Uranus is, after all, the planet that seeks simplification, the formula from which the whole emerges. Your Uranus is close to the Descendant, and here perhaps lies the desire, the drive, to communicate this system to others and to make it accessible.

Schneider: I feel this tension between Jupiter on the Ascendant and Uranus on the Descendant, that is, on the relationship axis, very strongly. When I was a little boy, I liked to sit down as a "Red Indian" in my self-made tent on family trips and felt comfortable but also lonely. I was always looking for contact with the community but oscillated back and forth between opening up and withdrawing. As time passed, I increasingly sought this opening, connection rather than separation. Separation is pain, and I experienced that very strongly as a child. My parents separated, and I was alone. My brother was older, and I also felt detached from him.

Weiss: Another thing that fits the Jupiter principle and this quest is your interest in faraway places. You said you felt like a Native American as a child, and now you live in Chile and have a Chilean wife.

Schneider: That's right.

Weiss: Obviously, foreign countries must have a strong pull on you. How do you see that?

Schneider: Yes. China and Japan exerted the first pull on me. That must have been something karmic. I always thought that I would go to China later on. But I have never been to China and am no longer drawn there today. But I was drawn to South America - far away from this Western world, from Swiss perfectionism, where everything is regulated, fixed, and ready. I wanted something new and found a job in South America - in Chile. I came to this country, but only much later did I meet my second wife, a Chilean who has something of a Native American about her. You have just now made me aware that this "Red Indian child" sitting in the self-made tent was already the beginning of the relationship with the indigenous people of South America.

Weiss: For me, further interesting information appears in your Nodal Axis. - In our school of astrology, the descending Lunar Node symbolizes the situation from which we come, both karmically and regarding early experiences in this life. In your case, Lilith is at the descending node of the Moon in Leo and exactly square Mercury, as well as in exact sextile to Chiron. That means that Lilith, Mercury, and Chiron determine your Nodal Axis. Lilith on the descending lunar node signifies that you have access to matriarchal knowledge, to matriarchal experiences in general, which can show itself in the way that the feminine plays an enormous role in your own life and that you, as a man, perhaps also fight against the power of the feminine, have to prove yourself in the confrontation with the feminine. On the other hand, there is the desire to deal with the knowledge that comes from former times. With Lilith in the tenth house square Mercury, there can be a need to gain prominence by advocating and speaking uncomfortable truths.

Schneider: Yes, I am very much into that.

Weiss: And that's why foreign cultures could play a role. The interest in the other, in minorities, is that a theme with you?

Schneider: More in the spiritual sense. I've never believed that the majority has absolute authority. I prefer to think it's individuals who are closer to the truth. Truth is experienced individually, not by voting. And you're right. The feminine element plays an enormously significant role in my life. I have always been very attracted to women. Now, I think it's not so much the physical but more this inner feminine, the receptive, the openness, this affectionate, loving relationship that brings unity. So the oneness with others, not intellectual arguing with others, not the wanting to be correct of Mercury, which used to be very pronounced with me, with Mercury in Scorpio.

Weiss: How did that manifest?

Schneider: I was often very sarcastic - just like the real Basel people, who cultivate a certain mocking irony. I also often said the opposite of what I thought until I realized how much that separated me from others. It created a wall because the others never truly knew what I meant in each case. Then, I gave that up because I realized this lack of clarity made me insecure, too.

Weiss: I read that you were a drawing teacher in Switzerland and that you quit teaching when you were about 50. Is that true?

Schneider: Yes, I retired.

Weiss: Why did you do that?

Schneider: When I taught at the Swiss school in Chile, I came into contact with a spiritual group where I met my Japanese teacher, who instructed me in massage, acupuncture, nutrition, and spiritual meditation. He also taught me how to get out of the painful polarity state, whether through meditation, a healthy diet, or massages - from physical to spiritual, that is, subtle massage without touch.

Weiss: But you still had connections to Switzerland at that time?

Schneider: Yes, I was working in Basel again, but no longer as a teacher, but as a massage therapist. I also offered courses in a massage technique I had developed myself.

Weiss: That must have been in the 1980s.

Schneider: Yes. In 1985, I stopped teaching and made a cut. I painted a lot at that time - pictures with archaic symbols. This, too, perhaps through the influence of Lilith, because the archetypes fascinated me very much. I found signs for man and animals and created symbolic pictures of the cosmos, depicting inner realities, landscapes, and inner experiences.

Weiss: When did you go to Chile for good?

Schneider: At the end of 1999.

Weiss: And now, what are you doing there? Are you pursuing an activity?

Schneider: I slowly moved from massage to more subtle forms of treatment, that is, to actual healing, working more and more with pure energy, the so-called laying on of hands. However, healing abilities were not available to me from the beginning. I had to develop them first. I practiced for a long time to direct the energy from the heart to the hand. Finally, I passed an examination as a healer at the Swiss Association for Natural Healing. For some time, I did public healing sessions in the Elisabethenkirche in Basel, always on Thursday afternoons. People could come and receive healing free of charge. That was a beautiful experience for me. It was the most beautiful thing I ever did.

Weiss: To heal?

Schneider: Yes. Being with a person in threes: the person with problems or pain, me as the channel, and the Holy Spirit as the one who gives the energy. It's not like I'm healing myself, but I'm in the fortunate position of receiving this energy and passing it on. That is a magnificent feeling! When I pass on this energy, I feel that I am being healed myself at the same time.

Weiss: As you describe it, this healing probably has much to do with Chiron but even more with Neptune and your constellation in the twelfth house.

Schneider: My twelfth house is indeed heavily occupied, although it seems interesting to me that Venus, which is on the cusp of the twelfth house, has - unfortunately - no aspects according to my system. That shows this loneliness, the not-being-connected, I suffered from, which probably caused the strong desire for connection with others, for this oneness with people.

Weiss: But Venus is strong at the same time because it is in the sign it rules.

Schneider: Strong and painful at the same time.

Weiss: And how do you fulfill this desire for oneness?

Schneider: I just came back from a retreat, a spiritual retreat, which was about discovering oneness, oneness within. Of course, I also took my color test with me, and many of the participants there took the test. After all, it shows personality - how we are and behave, and in that sense, I discussed the test with the participants. The group leader agreed, and at the very end, he said, "This test is most useful because it shows everyone exactly what they are not." At first, I thought, "Now, how can I understand that?" Then, suddenly, it clicked in me, and I thought that was a swell definition.

Weiss: In what way?

Schneider: The color test describes our personality, but this is, at the same time, what stands in the way of us getting to our essence. But of course, we first have to look at our personality and know it intimately before we can even let go of it or recognize it as an illusion.

Weiss: Could you say that your system describing human "games" and tricks characterizes mainly the ego?

Schneider: Absolutely.

Weiss: And that although there is another dimension, it is essential to take note of this ego, to be able to acknowledge it. - I noticed something interesting about these interpretations: It was regularly the case that others found them very apt for the person, while the person involved smirked, was sometimes somewhat embarrassed, or even reacted dismissively. In other words, this test expresses various components that we show but do not always stand by.

Schneider: That's the point! It is simply painful and dangerous for the ego to see how it functions. If we recognize how all these roles in us interact, we can see through them and see what is actually behind them. And that, in the end, is the essential thing: not to take the wrapping seriously, but the content. The package may be impressive, but the chocolates inside are the sweetness.

Weiss: So you could say that the whole thing is also an ego test?

Schneider: Absolutely. My test shows the ego, and it's sometimes painful and uncomfortable to see. I think that someone who lives very much on the outside can use this test very well. They can use it to see: This is who I am. But even if they are unsure whether they are really like that, they can see themselves in a mirror with a new perspective, leading them further. They can slowly get in touch with themselves.

Weiss: So, is the test only applicable to egocentric people?

Schneider: No, someone who lives strongly inwardly and tries to find the divine in themselves, who meditates a lot and does exercises to discover the self, can also make good use of the test. They know what it characterizes is ultimately an illusion, but they still believe in the illusion. Otherwise, they were enlightened. Only when they have arrived behind this mirage, they don't need all this anymore. Then they don't need a horoscope, a color test, a system - nothing at all. But this color test is a helpful orientation for those who have not yet found this unity.

Weiss: Johannes, thank you very much for this interview.

1. The interview with Johannes Schneider appeared in Astrologie Heute No. 105 (October/November 2003). The reprint on www.astro.com takes place with the friendly permission of the editors.
2. Johannes Schneider's psychological color test (Color-O-Scope®) uses color choices to show a person's current behaviors and problems. You can find it at www.astro.com under "Color Oracle" in the "Free Horoscopes."
3. Demetra George: Asteroid Goddesses: The Mythology, Psychology, and Astrology of the Re-emerging Feminine, Nicolas-Hays, Inc; Revised edition (August 1, 2003).
4. Astro-Color-System® chart reading by Johannes Schneider is available at www.astro.com as "Color Horoscope." It provides insights into character structures, qualities, needs, and "role plays." It also describes the inner psychic defense mechanisms and shows ways to defuse these conflicts. The text is occasionally somewhat confrontational and expects an active examination of one's personality. You can order the complete interpretation of 10 to 12 pages as an E-horoscope in the Astroshop.